IMPEACH GEORGE BUSH!! The Bulldog Manifesto Shooting Plutonium in a Rocket Over Florida - The Bulldog Manifesto

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006

Shooting Plutonium in a Rocket Over Florida

Bad idea!

I don't care what the odds are, you just don't fire a rocket containing the "most toxic radioactive substance known" into outer space, risking accident and mass exposure.

Is a probe to the planet Pluto really worth the risk of showering Florida with plutonium?

I mean really, could we at least vote on something like this?
"With the spacecraft containing 24 pounds of radioactive plutonium-238, the New Horizons launch is somewhat controversial.

The craft is not directly nuclear-powered, but the decay of the plutonium generates heat to fuel a battery, which in turn will power the probe as it moves far away from the sun to the outer reaches of the solar system.

Critics have expressed concern that an accident on launch could spread deadly plutonium over a wide swath of central Florida.

In an environmental impact statement NASA was required to file before making final flight plans, the space agency indicated that a 1-in-620 chance exists of an accident on liftoff that would release plutonium into the environment.

As a worst-case scenario, NASA estimated the chances at "1 in 1.4 million to 1 in 18 million" that an "extremely unlikely launch area accident" could release up to 2 percent, or about half a pound, of the plutonium on board the spacecraft.

NASA critic Karl Grossman, author of "The Wrong Stuff: The Space Program's Nuclear Threat to Our Planet," said he doesn't agree with NASA's interpretation of the risks.

"Is NASA again crossing its fingers and hoping?" he asked. "If it's 2 percent or it's 6 percent or if it's 20 percent or if it's 100 percent, when you're talking about plutonium, you're talking about the most toxic radioactive substance known."

New Horizons scientists say the benefits of the project outweigh the risks associated with launch."

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You don't have to tell me twice--I live within range of plutonium toxicity if the thing blows! We're being told to go into our homes and turn the a/c off in that eventuality.
WTF?
It all seems very bizarre to me.
What next--duck & cover?

I want to be in support of science, since it's getting it's butt kicked right now--but not in this case. No, not in this one.

One week it is glowing green pigs...the next it is glowing green Floridians...what will they think of next?

I dunno where you got your facts, but you've greatly overestimated plutonium's toxicity.

No one has ever died directly of plutonium exposure. On top of that, casual contact with it cannot cause cancer (the type of raditation it admits can basically be blocked by a thick sheet of plastic). Even Botox is more toxic than plutonium, and if you're talking only radioactive stuff, radium (which used to be found on glow-in-the-dark watches) is more toxic.

That said, plutonium is still a radioactive heavy metal, so eating it is certainly not a good idea (but then again, drinking mercury is a bad idea too).

Hi! Coming here from Crooks&Liars.. Thought I should offer a few comments on this.

First off, this is not a nuclear reactor. It is not undergoing the reactions that things like CANDU reactors or Chernobyl do. It's a lump of metal in water.

Yes, you heard me right. It's a lump of metal in water. By virtue of it's being radioactive, it heats the water up, producing a steam engine. This powers a turbine, yadda yadda yadda. Simplest method for generating power there is.

The risks are overstated. If the unthinkable did happen, it'd be a solid lump of metal.. Heavy, dense metal.. That came down, and in a pretty well built casing. If Floridians cracked that open and cuddled the metal in the steaming water, well, they're suicidal.

Second, it's necessary. This type of power will run for decades, maybe centuries. Hell, it's how we found out about radiation; a natural version of this type of power generation was found in Oslo. People there are not glowing green.

The Left has feared nuclear power because the greenies seeded us all with lies. It's time to buck the lies and embrace both fission and Radiothermal(That's this kind of power generation, glorified steam power) as superior to coal and oil. Best part? It messes up the companies that have been abusing Americans the past few years.

Following up on what Martin said, I'd like to point out that the average coal plant pumps out more radiation than the average nuclear power plant (coal contains lots of radioactive trace elements and the like).

Nuclear power is in fact the "greenest" power source we have right now, other than rewewable sources like solar and wind.

O smack! I know you didn't!

So, YES it's a good idea to probe Pluto.
Goofy on the other hand...

I won't comment on fission (not yet available) or Radiothermal (haven't thought much on it), but nuclear power is absolutely troublesome due to its waste.

What we SHOULD be doing is trying to figure out some sort of "soft landing" for humanity to de-populate back to a solar-sustainable 2 billion. We've been gorging on the solar battery (oil) for 150 years and have bloated our footprint on the planet.

OK, I will comment on Radiothermal - it perked my ears. Perhaps it can be used, but it should only be for the aforementioned "soft landing." Aside from the fact that it is also non-reneweable (agreed - that may be many generations down the road, hence weak argument), I still would argue that we may find it prudent to show some respect for Earth and get our footprint down to a respectable size.

Finally - let's not forget that oil is used in the fertilizer/pesticide aspect of food production yields. Sheer energy isn't going to replace that. Again - get footprint down.

Oops, my brain read "fusion" when I dismissied "fission." My criticisms of fission ("nuclear power") stand, however.

Didn't we already have this conversation with NASA in 1997? From a Cassini website (http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/database/MasterCatalog?sc=1997-061A), it says:

"Power is provided to the spacecraft through the use of three radioisotope thermoelectric generators (RTGs). Each RTG uses the heat generated by the decay of 10.9 kg of plutonium dioxide (PuO2) to generate electrical power to be used throughout the spacecraft."

I guess the issue may not have been settled then...

Despite the new calculations and reassurances, those who oppose NASA's plutonium-powered probes, including Galileo, believe the agency is gambling with the country's space exploration privileges. "No one is saying Cassini is going to fail; in fact, there's a very good chance Cassini will be a very good shot," said Michiao Kaku, professor of physics at the State University of New York.

"My point is, who wants to take that chance? We have to save NASA from itself. If there is a catastrophic accident involving plutonium, the American people will have such a backlash against NASA that that's going to be the end of planetary exploration, which will be very bad for science."

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,3244,00.html

We will take your rocket with Plutonium from the sky and make a dirty bomb and drop it in one of your Metropolisis if you do not re-elect all of the Republican Congressmen in 2006!

You have been warned.

Try to lighten up. This is NOT the first Plutonium battery space probe, and, last time I drove across the Everglades, Florida wasn't overrun with mutant armadilloes.

Try REAL hard to do a little research on this, and ask any Space Junkie over 45 about the last time we all ran in circles and screamed about the sky falling. It was in the middle '70's when a Soviet probe was due to re-enter.

Did it turn Australia into the Hiroshima of the Indian Ocean?

No. The SOB just burned up, like it's supposed to.

At launch, the biggest danger to the Plutonium package is from (1) the booster being blown up the Range Safety Officer or accident, either one acommon chemical explosive event which can be designed against; and, (2) a sudden impact with the ground from a great height, or, in the case of the Cape, the bottom of the Atlantic. As in (1) above, simply an Engineering problem.

When is the last time you heard of a jetliner's Flight Data Recorder or Cockpit Voice Recorder (the Black Boxes) being destroyed on impact?

Uncle Sam and doubtless John Bull and the Bear have been dropping nasty old U-238 and Plutonium off of airplanes, trucks, trailers, and ships by accident since the 1950's. Makes an expensive mess and helps fill up drums in a special landfill on the Savannah River.

Space probes aren't made of tinfoil and toad shit. Don't forget that we have had the technology at hand and in the field to create containers for plutonium that guarantee that fairly large amounts of it will re-enter Earth's atmosphere in a condition sufficiently intact to make a militarily - useful nuclear yield.

These containers are called "warheads." Westinghouse and GE have been cranking them out for the same period of time that Convair (now GD), Martin and Boeing have been building rockets.

Like the "caveman" in the GEICO commercial - next time, do a little Research.

Try GOOGLE'ing:

BROKEN ARROW
PALOMARES

Look into the inventory of objects which were recovered, intact, from the CHALLENGER accident.

None of the previous means that Plutonium is not the most toxic substance known to Man, because it is nasty, ugly shit. However, like Fire, it can be harnessed, on rare occasions, in such a fashion as to be Useful.

I don't want it in cars, trucks, locomotives or little sheds out behind our houses for electric power, as 1950's era futurists predicted. I certainly don't need to see it or its isotope cousins at Yucca Mountain, Nevada, because I live near there.

But I think there are more appropriate issues of Technology Poorly Implemented in play right NOW (like coal-fired plants, nasty Diesel particulates and global warming) which ask our attention.

From what I understand, the plutonium on board all these spacecraft is in the form of one or more ceramic pellets. If the spacecraft exploded like Challenger, it would just fall to the ground as solid clumps with all pieces of the spacecraft. If it burned up on reentry during an Earth flyby to pick up speed, the ceramic would be dispersed over such a wide area that the radiation density would be well below the natural background level.

There is basically no scenario by which the plutonium would be vaporized, dispersed over a small area and subsequently lodged in the lungs of lots of people, etc. You need concentrated high explosives to do that, like how a dirty bomb works, and the plutonium isn't in a hard-to-powderize ceramic form.

During the first 40 seconds of flight the New Horizons Atlas 5 rocket would still be over land (earth) not water. If there had been any malfunction and the rocket had fallen to hard land there was a chance it could release Plutonium dust particles and cause cancer to anyone within the dust plume.

In an act of reassurance, both Jeb Bush and George Bush professed that there was nothing to worry about. Thankfully they are both rocket scientists.

The other concern is that the union employees working for United Space Aliance (USA) are on strike currently and replacement workers were involved in the assembly of this launch.

To be fair, the launch appears to have been successfull.

Soviet News Station:
In other news, nothing bad happened today. Especially at Chernobyl.

Plutonium is heavy metal; much heavier than lead, gold, or iron. It's not gonna turn into dust easily. It's in a very redundant box. It'd have to be a hell of a misfire, and in that case, you're in far more danger of several kilos of metal on a ballistic arc than what it'll do if you happen to say 'Hrm, what's this malleable metal, I think I'll swallow it!'.

I will comment on the gentleman who brought up renewable/green power and the like. The book you want to pick up if you can find a copy is 'A Step Farther Out' by Jerry Pournelle. He ignores fusion and goes on to describe two forms of as-yet-unused solar power.

The important fact about both of these is they don't produce the large amounts of toxic goo that current panels do, and they aren't dependent on cloudless days.

One is the old idea of putting orbiting mirrors up to catch sunlight. It's got problems with the whole gutting of the space program.

The other, better one, involves putting large structures in the open ocean, and dropping a pipe to the depths. The water near the surface is heated by the sun, and retains that heat. Hot water goes through turbine, gets cold, sinks to the depths, repeat.

The waste products(Every process has waste products; as I mentioned, current solar panels create nasty goo during production, but I beleive folks are working on that) are: Fresh water and nutrients. Which is absolutely hilarious to me.

As for the troubles of nuclear waste, two things will solve it.

1. Repealing the Executive Order prohibiting 'breeder' reactors and reprocessing spent fuel.

2. Erasing the lie that radioactive waste is dangerous for millions of years. That's how long until it completely decays; Carbon takes millions of years to decay as well, it's why we use it to date things. Within five hundred years(And we can design for five hundred years in a cave!), it's returned to the level of radioactivity when we yanked it from the ground.

I hope this has been informative and thought provoking. Cheers.

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You don't have to tell me twice--I live within range of plutonium toxicity if the thing blows! We're being told to go into our homes and turn the a/c off in that eventuality.
WTF?
It all seems very bizarre to me.
What next--duck & cover?

I want to be in support of science, since it's getting it's butt kicked right now--but not in this case. No, not in this one.

One week it is glowing green pigs...the next it is glowing green Floridians...what will they think of next?

I dunno where you got your facts, but you've greatly overestimated plutonium's toxicity.

No one has ever died directly of plutonium exposure. On top of that, casual contact with it cannot cause cancer (the type of raditation it admits can basically be blocked by a thick sheet of plastic). Even Botox is more toxic than plutonium, and if you're talking only radioactive stuff, radium (which used to be found on glow-in-the-dark watches) is more toxic.

That said, plutonium is still a radioactive heavy metal, so eating it is certainly not a good idea (but then again, drinking mercury is a bad idea too).

Hi! Coming here from Crooks&Liars.. Thought I should offer a few comments on this.

First off, this is not a nuclear reactor. It is not undergoing the reactions that things like CANDU reactors or Chernobyl do. It's a lump of metal in water.

Yes, you heard me right. It's a lump of metal in water. By virtue of it's being radioactive, it heats the water up, producing a steam engine. This powers a turbine, yadda yadda yadda. Simplest method for generating power there is.

The risks are overstated. If the unthinkable did happen, it'd be a solid lump of metal.. Heavy, dense metal.. That came down, and in a pretty well built casing. If Floridians cracked that open and cuddled the metal in the steaming water, well, they're suicidal.

Second, it's necessary. This type of power will run for decades, maybe centuries. Hell, it's how we found out about radiation; a natural version of this type of power generation was found in Oslo. People there are not glowing green.

The Left has feared nuclear power because the greenies seeded us all with lies. It's time to buck the lies and embrace both fission and Radiothermal(That's this kind of power generation, glorified steam power) as superior to coal and oil. Best part? It messes up the companies that have been abusing Americans the past few years.

Following up on what Martin said, I'd like to point out that the average coal plant pumps out more radiation than the average nuclear power plant (coal contains lots of radioactive trace elements and the like).

Nuclear power is in fact the "greenest" power source we have right now, other than rewewable sources like solar and wind.

O smack! I know you didn't!

So, YES it's a good idea to probe Pluto.
Goofy on the other hand...

I won't comment on fission (not yet available) or Radiothermal (haven't thought much on it), but nuclear power is absolutely troublesome due to its waste.

What we SHOULD be doing is trying to figure out some sort of "soft landing" for humanity to de-populate back to a solar-sustainable 2 billion. We've been gorging on the solar battery (oil) for 150 years and have bloated our footprint on the planet.

OK, I will comment on Radiothermal - it perked my ears. Perhaps it can be used, but it should only be for the aforementioned "soft landing." Aside from the fact that it is also non-reneweable (agreed - that may be many generations down the road, hence weak argument), I still would argue that we may find it prudent to show some respect for Earth and get our footprint down to a respectable size.

Finally - let's not forget that oil is used in the fertilizer/pesticide aspect of food production yields. Sheer energy isn't going to replace that. Again - get footprint down.

Oops, my brain read "fusion" when I dismissied "fission." My criticisms of fission ("nuclear power") stand, however.

Didn't we already have this conversation with NASA in 1997? From a Cassini website (http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/database/MasterCatalog?sc=1997-061A), it says:

"Power is provided to the spacecraft through the use of three radioisotope thermoelectric generators (RTGs). Each RTG uses the heat generated by the decay of 10.9 kg of plutonium dioxide (PuO2) to generate electrical power to be used throughout the spacecraft."

I guess the issue may not have been settled then...

Despite the new calculations and reassurances, those who oppose NASA's plutonium-powered probes, including Galileo, believe the agency is gambling with the country's space exploration privileges. "No one is saying Cassini is going to fail; in fact, there's a very good chance Cassini will be a very good shot," said Michiao Kaku, professor of physics at the State University of New York.

"My point is, who wants to take that chance? We have to save NASA from itself. If there is a catastrophic accident involving plutonium, the American people will have such a backlash against NASA that that's going to be the end of planetary exploration, which will be very bad for science."

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,3244,00.html

We will take your rocket with Plutonium from the sky and make a dirty bomb and drop it in one of your Metropolisis if you do not re-elect all of the Republican Congressmen in 2006!

You have been warned.

Try to lighten up. This is NOT the first Plutonium battery space probe, and, last time I drove across the Everglades, Florida wasn't overrun with mutant armadilloes.

Try REAL hard to do a little research on this, and ask any Space Junkie over 45 about the last time we all ran in circles and screamed about the sky falling. It was in the middle '70's when a Soviet probe was due to re-enter.

Did it turn Australia into the Hiroshima of the Indian Ocean?

No. The SOB just burned up, like it's supposed to.

At launch, the biggest danger to the Plutonium package is from (1) the booster being blown up the Range Safety Officer or accident, either one acommon chemical explosive event which can be designed against; and, (2) a sudden impact with the ground from a great height, or, in the case of the Cape, the bottom of the Atlantic. As in (1) above, simply an Engineering problem.

When is the last time you heard of a jetliner's Flight Data Recorder or Cockpit Voice Recorder (the Black Boxes) being destroyed on impact?

Uncle Sam and doubtless John Bull and the Bear have been dropping nasty old U-238 and Plutonium off of airplanes, trucks, trailers, and ships by accident since the 1950's. Makes an expensive mess and helps fill up drums in a special landfill on the Savannah River.

Space probes aren't made of tinfoil and toad shit. Don't forget that we have had the technology at hand and in the field to create containers for plutonium that guarantee that fairly large amounts of it will re-enter Earth's atmosphere in a condition sufficiently intact to make a militarily - useful nuclear yield.

These containers are called "warheads." Westinghouse and GE have been cranking them out for the same period of time that Convair (now GD), Martin and Boeing have been building rockets.

Like the "caveman" in the GEICO commercial - next time, do a little Research.

Try GOOGLE'ing:

BROKEN ARROW
PALOMARES

Look into the inventory of objects which were recovered, intact, from the CHALLENGER accident.

None of the previous means that Plutonium is not the most toxic substance known to Man, because it is nasty, ugly shit. However, like Fire, it can be harnessed, on rare occasions, in such a fashion as to be Useful.

I don't want it in cars, trucks, locomotives or little sheds out behind our houses for electric power, as 1950's era futurists predicted. I certainly don't need to see it or its isotope cousins at Yucca Mountain, Nevada, because I live near there.

But I think there are more appropriate issues of Technology Poorly Implemented in play right NOW (like coal-fired plants, nasty Diesel particulates and global warming) which ask our attention.

From what I understand, the plutonium on board all these spacecraft is in the form of one or more ceramic pellets. If the spacecraft exploded like Challenger, it would just fall to the ground as solid clumps with all pieces of the spacecraft. If it burned up on reentry during an Earth flyby to pick up speed, the ceramic would be dispersed over such a wide area that the radiation density would be well below the natural background level.

There is basically no scenario by which the plutonium would be vaporized, dispersed over a small area and subsequently lodged in the lungs of lots of people, etc. You need concentrated high explosives to do that, like how a dirty bomb works, and the plutonium isn't in a hard-to-powderize ceramic form.

During the first 40 seconds of flight the New Horizons Atlas 5 rocket would still be over land (earth) not water. If there had been any malfunction and the rocket had fallen to hard land there was a chance it could release Plutonium dust particles and cause cancer to anyone within the dust plume.

In an act of reassurance, both Jeb Bush and George Bush professed that there was nothing to worry about. Thankfully they are both rocket scientists.

The other concern is that the union employees working for United Space Aliance (USA) are on strike currently and replacement workers were involved in the assembly of this launch.

To be fair, the launch appears to have been successfull.

Soviet News Station:
In other news, nothing bad happened today. Especially at Chernobyl.

Plutonium is heavy metal; much heavier than lead, gold, or iron. It's not gonna turn into dust easily. It's in a very redundant box. It'd have to be a hell of a misfire, and in that case, you're in far more danger of several kilos of metal on a ballistic arc than what it'll do if you happen to say 'Hrm, what's this malleable metal, I think I'll swallow it!'.

I will comment on the gentleman who brought up renewable/green power and the like. The book you want to pick up if you can find a copy is 'A Step Farther Out' by Jerry Pournelle. He ignores fusion and goes on to describe two forms of as-yet-unused solar power.

The important fact about both of these is they don't produce the large amounts of toxic goo that current panels do, and they aren't dependent on cloudless days.

One is the old idea of putting orbiting mirrors up to catch sunlight. It's got problems with the whole gutting of the space program.

The other, better one, involves putting large structures in the open ocean, and dropping a pipe to the depths. The water near the surface is heated by the sun, and retains that heat. Hot water goes through turbine, gets cold, sinks to the depths, repeat.

The waste products(Every process has waste products; as I mentioned, current solar panels create nasty goo during production, but I beleive folks are working on that) are: Fresh water and nutrients. Which is absolutely hilarious to me.

As for the troubles of nuclear waste, two things will solve it.

1. Repealing the Executive Order prohibiting 'breeder' reactors and reprocessing spent fuel.

2. Erasing the lie that radioactive waste is dangerous for millions of years. That's how long until it completely decays; Carbon takes millions of years to decay as well, it's why we use it to date things. Within five hundred years(And we can design for five hundred years in a cave!), it's returned to the level of radioactivity when we yanked it from the ground.

I hope this has been informative and thought provoking. Cheers.

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If you have a "horror story" when dealing with an American Bull Dog breeder or kennel PLEASE share it with us at http://americanbulldogblog.blogspot.com/

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